I've postulated before on this site that Brahms and Beethoven require a taut, defined sound to bring out the drive in the music. Living Stereo Shaded Dogs need not apply, and ditto for Mercury Living Presence. Decca/London is not much better. It seems that His Master's Voice ASD and Columbia SAX (both EMI) had the knack for putting out some good Brahms and Beethoven. So what does this all mean? Well, I for one am not aware of definitive great sounding LP performances so today I am exploring the possibilities and proposing some candidates.
CS 6099 Beethoven, Piano Concerto 1, Backhaus, Schmidt-Issertedt, VPO. The Decca SXL jams piano concerto 2 on the same album, so it is hopeless; the London sounds better.(The 10" Decca SWL 8008 has just the PC). I have this LP and the sound is quite good and it just works very well as a whole, however the piano is not spotlighted which might bother some. Forget Katchen on Decca, it has distortion issues that are evident on the digital copies too and my RECUT pressing from Sweden. Other contenders I've not heard:
-ASD 294 ED1 W/G STEREO UK BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO 1 SOLOMON MENGES
-SCX 3567 Beethoven: Piano Concerto No.1 Leon Fleisher/Szell/NM (EMI release of Epic)
-Deutsche Grammophon – 415 682-1, Beethoven* - Martha Argerich, Giuseppe Sinopoli, Philharmonia Orchestra - Klavierkonzerte Nos. 1 & 2 (from 1986, digital, great performance of both)
-Michelangeli Giulini Beethoven Piano Concerto No.1 Ed1 DGG Stereo Live '79
-DGG 138 636 SLPM Beethoven Piano Concerto No 1 Andor Foldes Red Stereo 1960
-CFP 40232 JOHN LILL Beethoven Piano Con 1 SNO Gibson
-Bishop (Kovacevich): Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 1 - Philips 6500 179
I'd stay away from the Menges on ASD. The Fleisher on SCX looks very, very interesting, but Epic is known for a dry sound. I'd snag the Lill or Bishop (Kovacevich) for sound quality and I've heard the Philips does have a good noise floor for those who value such sonic attributes. I really like the Backhaus and it is a respected performance with a unique and very nice Blueback tube sound.
After listening to Fleisher Szell, I must say I find the first piano concerto quite respectable, but I suspect some hints of breakup and dryness will be unbearable. Fortunately, piano concerto 2 seems much freer of these distortions and the performance is amazing. I enjoyed the Brendel (also PC1) with Haitink which has nice weight and different playing. I heard hints of breakup. The Vox Box of Brendel might be very nice at the right price. For the best sound the Bishop again has nice sound and a better performance this time. The Kempff on DG looks interesting and they do sell, but I am not for sure that the Stereo LP is truly stereo or a top performance (Kempff known for Beethoven cycle in early 50s, i.e. mono). The cover to the right is the winner and I hope the EMI Columbia pressing of this Epic recording has decent sound. These came out in about 1965 which is after the Blue and Silver sound of the Columbia SAX. If the SCX were pressed by another EMI division the sound might really be something, otherwise the original Epic on the gold stereorama label might do. The SCX is a bit of a bargain given Columbia SAX prices, apparently the completists haven't discovered SCX. US Columbia bought Epic and even has a Fleischer Beethoven box set. They would have released Fleischer under CBS and Fontana labels in Europe which would make for some interesting pressings. The Beethoven Piano Concerto 2 list in nor particular order:
-SAX 2346 BLUE SILVER Claudio Arrau Beethoven Piano Concerto 2 1960
-SCX 3541 (1ST Ed.) BEETHOVEN: PIANO CONCERTOS No. 2 & 4 – FLEISHER & SZELL
-WILHELM KEMPFF / Beethoven Piano Concerto No.2 & 4 / DGG Red Stereo SLPM 138 775
-
Vox VSPS 17 BEETHOVEN 5 piano concerti, rondo, choral, fantasy, sonatas BRENDEL, MEHTA
-Philips 6767-002 (5LP): Brendel/Haitink, Beethoven 5 Piano Ctos.
-Beethoven Piano Concerto Nos.2&4 Stephen Bishop Colin Davis 1975 Philips 6500975
-BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO 2 HASKIL MARKEVITCH PHILIPS HI-FI STEREO HI FI 835040AY
Not excited about the Arrau above on SAX. The Haskil just above is insanely rare. Probably the most tubey of the lot would be the Kempff on early DG.
I was a bit surprised by my reactions to the various recordings of Beethoven's third piano concerto. The much revered Fleisher/Szell did not do it for me and I suspect the recording has subtle sonic issues. The SCX does not appear to garner high prices, so snag one for cheap, but for overall sound and performance the market shows quite a few better options. The Barenboim Klemperer sounds like Otto is trying to excrete a marble statue in the opening and has a bit of harshness to the sound. It is a respected performance and I have the ASD of this, but my recollection was disappointment in comparison to the fifth. The digital Backhaus 3rd on youtube reveals some troubling sonic artifacts and I do not care for the performance. Arrau is definitely good with Haitink (1964 Philips), but despite nice bass weight I suspect this one is a sonic loser on LP. Kovacevich (under the name Steven Bishop) was quite likable on Philips and may have a sound floor advantage. The steal in this bunch may be Solomon on the 10" BSD as it has a nice performance and tube sound (the completists are probably ignorant of this one as it is not a gold and cream ASD, just a BSD and I have one with Holst's Beni Mora that is quite fine.) Solomon performs the seldom heard cadenza by Clara Schumann. The Katchen on Decca is decent (I have the London). The Perahia Haitink set is on LP, digital unfortunately and on CD is one of the best Beethoven Complete Concertos. The early Annie Fischer on DG (pictured left) does quite well and is one of the top performances of this piece. Based on reputation, I'd have to give it the nod by a nose over the Solomon for top tube sound honors. A lot of people just like Annie Fischer, and I'm one of them. Noise floor afficionados may also like Richter/Muti on EMI ASD in addition to the Bishop mentioned above.
-ANNIE FISCHER PLAYS BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO NO 3 & MOZART RONDO DG 138 087
-Perahia Haitink Beethoven 5 Piano Concertos CBS Ed1 Stereo Digital '88
-DGG SLPM 138 776 *RED STEREO *WILHELM KEMPFF* BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO NO. 3
-Glenn Gould/Bernstein BEETHOVEN Piano Concerto No.3 - Columbia MS 6096 Six-Eye
-SOLOMON PLAYS BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO NO 3 PO MENGES EMI BSD 751
-BEETHOVEN Richter Muti Piano Concerto No3 C Mnr Vinyl LP EMI HMV ASD3543
-Columbia SCX 3572 Beethoven Piano Concerto 3, Fleisher, Szell, Cleveland
-WILHELM BACKHAUS "BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO NO 3" LONDON DECCA WBG BB CS 6094
-Philips 6500 315 LP NM Beethoven: Piano Concerto No 3, Stephen Bishop
-Beethoven - Piano Concerto No.3 - Richter-Haaser / Columbia SAX 2543 STEREO
-Beethoven-Piano Concerto No. 3-Lp Vinyl Record-Philips-6570 104-Arrau-Haitink
-BEETHOVEN Piano Concerto No 3 BENEDETTI MICHELANGELI GIULINI DGG 423 230-1 1987
You'd have to pay me to listen to the Richter-Haaser SAX as it did not come out in a blue and silver (leave the completists to this one). The Gould/Bernstein does not get a lot of love. Nor does Brendel, but once again I like the Brendel third.
"The Fourth Concerto can lay claim to being the most profound of the five, and Leon Fleisher provides an interpretation which has never been equaled. The playing of the Cleveland Orchestra under George Szell is absolutely superb, and the 1959 recording, now on Sony, still sounds well. This remains one of the greatest piano concerto recordings ever made." Amazonian reviewer Alexander Leach. Unfortunately, sonically this may not be a great recording, but as it was the pick of the litter for its coupling with the second well you might just grab it (or you might not as that is a lot of music on one LP.) Many like the Gilels Ludwig and I have the 10" Blue and Silver SBO 2752. Don't buy it, it is not any good. If you want this on LP, run don't walk and buy the Concert Classic SXLP 30086 which throws in the Oistrakh Mozart Violin Concerto 3 as a great bonus (also avail-able on the rarer Regal SREG 1090). Not a fan of the Bishop on this one. Brendel is just down right bizarre. Kempff is a master, but the later recording in stereo just does not have it like his earlier material, though Mr. Leach does recommend it. I really like this
1939 Kempff performance. A friend has the London Blueback CS 6054 and I really like it. It very much has the flavor of Mr. Kempff's great 1939 performance with excellent FFSS sonics. The Decca came out earlier and might even be better, but you'll pay. The Backhaus and Kempff are much more lyrical than the Fleisher. The Backhaus is a great LP and performance that may just be the best of both worlds.
-WILHELM KEMPFF / Beethoven Piano Concerto No.2 & 4 / DGG Red Stereo SLPM 138 775
-SAX 2403 B/s orig 1st BEETHOVEN piano concerto no. 4 RICHTER-HAASER KERTESZ PO
- LONDON BLUE BACK BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO No.4 BACKHAUS SCHMIDT-ISSERSTEDT CS 6054
I'll add that the SAX 2403 is a dubious purchase and is much better sampled on Classics for Pleasure CFP 155. Richer-Haaser seems to have been passed by. Noise freaks run for the hills I don't have a recommendation for you.
Once again, your reviewer has been tortured by the sonic mediocrity that abounds with the famous Emperor Concerto (the 5th). One and Four were easy choices especially with the very attainable Blueback Backhaus pressings. Two suffers from a lack of true sonic greatness, but perhaps the Bishop is the save bet. Enough choices abound with the Third. And, absolutely no sonic recommendations on maestro Salvatore's Supreme Recordings for any of these concerti. If you are going high def digital, Serkin on Telarc seems a great choice according to John J. Puccio on his Classical Candor blog, "The audio, which Telarc recorded digitally in 1981 at Symphony Hall, Boston, and which LIM remastered in 2011 and released in 2012, is big and bold to match the performance. LIM’s 32-bit Ultra High Definition processing results in a beautifully natural piano sound and a dynamic orchestral support, making an almost ideal combination of instrumental sonics. We also hear a touch of ambient hall bloom, helping the piano appear rich and resonant, and there’s good clarity throughout without being in any way bright, hard, or edgy. In short, this LIM product is the best-sounding Beethoven Fifth Piano Concerto I have ever heard, and a brief comparison to over half a dozen other recordings of the piece I had on hand confirmed this impression."
Not sure if I can swallow a Telarc LP, so let's methodically weed through the competition. SAX 2252 with Gilels/Ludwig; I own the second pressing and it is a poor sounding recording. Van Cliburn's Shaded Dog with Reiner on LSC-2562 is another great performance, but the sound is not great. Perhaps if one weed through enough copies you might find something decent, but be prepared for disappointment and no SB British pressing either. Fleischer/Szell is certainly different and great, but the piano is a bit brittle on this recording and the bass a bit light, but just great. Fontana 877800 EZ (Dutch Pressing) of the Fleisher would be an interesting pressing and I've got the Epic. The Kempff is well regarded and the tube sound of the DGG Red Stereo Tulip might be great and it's definitely one of the top priced copies on the used market. EMI Columbia put out two other Blue and Silver Emporers, with Richter-Haaser on SAX 2422 and Arrau on SAX 2297. The Haaser will cost you more unless you go for a second pressing (don't!). The sound and performance online is quite interesting. Have some SAX with Arrua if Richter-Haaser is not available; its supposed to be a great performance and the Blue & Silver is common enough for prices not to get out hand. Curzon/Knappertsbusch sounds like it was recorded in Knappertsbusch's younger days. Glenn Gould well is just not right. Katchen isn't catching... Serkin sinks back. Backhaus isn't back. Brendel bores. Zechlin needs hecklin' (for the sound). Michelangeli, the Legend, eludes the studio once again, but not Youtube and I must say a must have for the unique and amazing performance. RCA badly garbles Rubinstein (again.) Barenboin/Klemperer put on a huge performance, with huge sound, and a huge piano (EMI ASD 2500) along with a great Allegro. Beautifully balanced, if not the most nuanced interpretation, but I'm not in love with the Rondo. Looking for a little more fire, then the youthful Gelber on Concert Classics SXLP 20104 may deliver a jolt of electricity, including "Grand Prix des Audiophiles" sound according to the French magazine Diapason. And last, but not least is Stephen Bishop (Kovacevich). A sonic winner it is hoped for the sound floor lovers, perhaps not the best performance, but one that will grow on the listener and keep them coming back. A Penguin Guide Rosette disc and Bishop gets a Miles to Mozart Rosette for his complete Beethoven Concertos, Colin Davis conducting. Klemperer gets a prize for his Emporer with Barenboim, and is forgiven for Colonel Clink.
- DGG RED STEREO TULIP ED1 - BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO 5 - KEMPFF - LEITNER
- COLUMBIA - SAX 2422 - BEETHOVEN - PIANO CONCERTO NO. 5 - RICHTER HAASER
-Columbia SAX2297 - Beethoven - Piano Concerto 5 - Claudio ARRAU - Alceo GALLIERA
-SXL 2002 : WBg : Beethoven : Piano Concerto No. 5 : Curzon : Hans Knappertsbusch
- SXL 6109 Beethoven Piano Concerto No. 5 etc. / Katchen
- ASHKENAZY, SOLTI - DECCA SXL 6655 - BEETHOVEN - PIANO CONCERTO N.5
-ZECHLIN, Kurt SANDERLING Dirigent, BEETHOVEN Piano Concerto 5 ETERNA STEREO
-Gilels Ludwig Beethoven Piano Concerto No.5 British Ed1 Columbia SAX 2252
-Decca SXL2179 - Beethoven - Piano Concerto No. 5 - BACKHAUS - SCHMIDT-ISSERSTEDT
-DGG 2531385 BENEDETTI MICHELANGELI BEETHOVEN PIANO CONCERTO 5 GIULINI
-Telarc DIGITAL - Rudolf Serkin - Piano - SEALED LP - BEETHOVEN - Concerto No. 5
-SB 6598 Beethoven Piano Concerto 5 Rubinstein Leinsdorf 1964
-BEETHOVEN. Piano Concerto No. 5 in E flat C) major, Op. 73, "Emperor" Alfred Brendel (piano), London Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Bernard Haitink. Philips 9500 243
-STEREO LP COLUMBIA MS6888 BEETHOVEN EMPEROR CONCERTO STOKOWSKI GLENN GOULD PIANO
-RCA SHADED DOG Beethoven VAN CLIBURN Concerto #5 Emperor REINER LSC-2562
-SXLP 20104 - BEETHOVEN - Emporer Concerto GELBER - New PO
Meles -- thanks for your thoughtful post and survey of the Beethoven Piano Concertos. I'm a big fan of the music and have listened to and/or owned several cycles in both analog and digital. Here are just a few of my thoughts:
ReplyDeleteReference cycles with regards to performance: I think you nailed it on this one ... the Fleisher/Szell have been landmark recordings for decades (just as the Fleisher/Szell Brahms PC recordings). In terms of all around performance, this one is really hard to beat. There is a great synergy between soloist, conductor, and orchestra that really delivers. Unfortunately, the vinyl LPs don't do great justice to the performances and are thus not great records in terms of sound quality. They are dry as you mention, though I have only heard the Epic releases. I do not think that later CBS reissues improved on this much. The digital remaster of the 2000s by Sony is very decent and might present the performances in the best possible light. I would not discount the Kempff/Leitner on DG. I have the boxed set complete with all blue tulips label LPs and the sound is better than the Fleisher Epics. The performances are also very enjoyable. Those looking for something more collectible but not complete might be interested in the Hans Richter-Haaser on Columbia SAX blue/silver. Richter-Haaser only recorded the 3rd to 5th concertos with Istvan Kertesz but they are all very respectable. Sound quality is decent, not the best that EMI/Columbia had to offer, but the performances are robust. Richter-Haaser was a respected Beethoven interpreter. I would pass up the Rubinstein/Krips on RCA .. neither are they captive performances nor are they great records in terms of sound. I have yet to hear Arrau on Philips. Brendel knows his Beethoven, though I have not found myself turning to his Beethoven concertos on Philips (have not heard the Vox) as a reference. Others may disagree with me. I picked up the Bishop Philips cycle as a budget boxed set but didn't fall in love with it. In terms of modern cycles, I really like the Yefim Bronfman with David Zinman and the Tonhalle Zurich on Arte Nova ... a budget priced digital set that offers excellent performances in superb digital sound. Don't let the price fool you. I also like the Paul Lewis Harmonia Mundi set with the BBC and Richard Goode on Nonesuch with the Budapest Festival Orchestra conducted by Ivan Fischer.
If you still had the Bishop Philips cycle it would be interesting to see if it was sonically pleasing on the new rig. I found most of his performances to be excellent, but perhaps not in the top 2 or 3 for a given piece. Given that and hopefully respectable sound quality it might be the budget play on vinyl. I thought Backhaus as a complete cycle might be good, but I really don't care for his 2nd, 3rd, and 5th.
DeleteMy goal with this article was to search out the most pleasing overall LP's for audiophile playback. Perahia/Haitink is a very well respected modern series that happened to have made it onto vinyl (digital), so I mentioned it. It could well be that digital offers are best hope for many of the performances, unfortunately HD digital cannot be used to great increase the sound quality of a previous digital release (except for Telarc which did Soundstream originally), so maybe someone will do one of the great cycles to HD digital.
Just got the Bishop Philips box.
DeleteBackhaus - another respected Beethoven interpreter. I always thought it was cool that he personally knew Brahms. I have his Beethoven sonata cycle and have heard some of the concertos as London bluebacks. Pretty decent sound, if I recall correctly, though overall it these performances don't dethrone Fleisher/Szell or Kempff/Leitner.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to hear the Curzon/Knappertsbusch. Not so sure about Knappertsbusch (my last impression of him was his blueback recording of Brahms, reviewed on this blog), but Curzon I like in general.
The Arrau/Galliera SAX I have not owned, but it's on my hunt list. Scratch off the Gilels/Galliera SAX which has relatively mediocre sound.
There is also the Maurizio Pollini/Karl Bohm cycle on DG, just prior to the dawn of the digital era. Those were also well received at the time.
The Annie Fischer DG recording with Fricsay is very nice. It's quite collectible, and I have never heard it on vinyl but have the recently released Fricsay boxed set from DG that includes this recording with the original LP sleeve facsimile.
I was surprised how much I liked the Backhaus interpretations of 1 and 4. Despite the accolades for Fleisher's fourth, I just prefer the old school Backhaus. I'd grant you that Kempff at least equals these, but only his early fifties mono recordings.
ReplyDeletePollini would be interesting and I might have been guilty of being very dismissive since its on DG. DG, starting in the 70s began polishing/deburring their metal mothers, which reduced surface noise, but also a lot of treble detail.
I'd love to score the Fischer on vinyl. I have very little tube DG. Some of it has a quite German/boring sound. Others have quite a bit of magic. I think the digital copy of Fischer is showing hints of perhaps having the right sound to be a great LP, but I just am not a good student of the label as these typically come from overseas and the shipping bill discourages experimentation. Donkim2 I believe has a VG copy up for sale here in the US. I may just have to snag it, but it already has some bids.
I have all the Backhaus concertos and the Bishop , Kempf, Barenboim box sets along with numerous others and yet the complete recordings that give me the most pleasure are contained in the CFP 78253 Box set, namely CFP 40087, 40259, 40271 & 40232. These are Alexander Gibson's recordings with the Scottish NationalOrchestra with John Lil at the piano. Lil's fifth may well be the best there is
DeleteBeautiful and since these were new releases on CFP prices might be very low.... and they are, but all in the UK with a hefty shipping charge so I think the whole set is in order.
DeleteGreat recommendation, AndyW. Will be hard to land here in the US, but as Meles was saying, might be something worth getting from the UK if done all at once. I have the Kempff DG tulips boxed set and like this a lot. I'm not always a fan of the DG sound, but somehow they seemed to get the Beethoven concertos with Kempff right.
DeleteJust a quick comment re: the Annie Fischer #3
ReplyDeleteAside from a late-ish '70's pressing on Heliodor (2548 series) there is an earlier Heliodor (88 series, I think) from the mid '60's which contains original 138 series matrices (1960, from memory).
The Solomon had a c.1966 recut on World Record Club + a stereo sonata.
Amazing knowledge on the Heliodor and World Record Club. Have you bumped into UK Fontana or CBS reissues of some of the Epic stuff?
DeleteHeliodor 89 series? Is that the same thing as 88?
DeleteI think Heliodor 88 might be mono.
DeleteThe Solomon also on Regal SREG 1053. The BSD can go for $100 for a top copy, but some times you can get lucky since the BSD prefix is easily missed.
DeleteYes, 89 513 - Piano Concerto No 3 plus Rondos K382 & K386 with Ferenc Frisky and the Bavarian State Orchestra.
DeleteHas both 89513 and DG 138 matrix No's in the dead wax plus various other crossed out marks
Making offers on this and a few Hummel UK Turnabouts...... No suspense as I'll just buy them if seller rejects.
DeleteSo the Heliodor is same as original, just off a litle more worn stamper?
HUMMEL & HAYDN PIANO CONCERTOS (TURNABOUT TV34073S) UK 1967 STEREO LP BRENDEL
DeleteQty: 1, £3.00
BEETHOVEN CONCERTO / MOZART RONDOS (HELIODOR 89 513) UK 1960 STEREO LP FRICSAY
Qty: 1, £3.00
HUMMEL PIANO CONCERTO/DOUBLE CONCERTO (TV 34028S) UK 1966 STEREO LP LAUTENBACHER
Qty: 1, £2.25
22 total delivered.
You could be right about the earlier Heliodor series numbering - but it is the stereo matrix from 1960...sleeve is mainly black + scenic pic.
ReplyDeleteI'm not well-versed about Regal - and it seems you are missing info on WRC..??
Incidentally, you are missing out the Solomon #1 (+stereo sonata) on ASD 269 (??)..a theoretically scarce LP (I've a new copy) as it seems to have been deleted within 18months (I bought its -mono- reissue c/w #2 on MfP whilst @ school.
IMO it's very worth searching-out in terms of performance/sound (as is his mono Brahms #1 on ALP)(Philharmonia/Kubelik)..same comments apply.
Re: Epic..I don't believe there are too many on the original Fontana..they are mostly Szell (the mono Wagner 'Ring' bits are excellent - at least for sound...and Serkin... Beethoven Diabelli Var + Mozart PC, etc, [not sure if the Mendelssohn 1/2 was Epic?] - one of which Mozart Concerti appears to be never on CD.
The CBS Classics stereo reissues contain some Epic's ..such as Szell Don Quixote..Rosen in Liszt PC1/Chopin 2..Juilliard...but they only used UK masterings - not imported CBS metalwork..in contrast to above Rosen when on Columbia SAX.
Using 'modern' playback equipment, I suspect quite a few of those CBS Classics would be sonically very worthwhile..but it's not economic to import them, as they don't have any 'cachet'..unlike stuff such as your fave $1000 Oistrakh/Hindemith-Bruch..which I must say was a £3.50 LP (before 10-20% cash discount) in 1986 in a London specialist shop (Gramex)!!!!!!
I once owned the UK CBS box set of Szell conducting the Brahms symphonies. I assume that they were UK mastered, because the works were all in different sequence on the LPs compared to the US issues. I could be wrong, though. In any case, I was not bowled over by the sound. It was average and wasn't enough for me to hold on to them. I think that the US Columbia 2-eyes and perhaps the SAXes would've offered the best pressing at the time, keeping in mind that none of these were stellar. The performances are very good, in my opinion.
DeleteI may snag some CBS UK Epic material my next big UK order.
DeleteAny material or data on world record club would be greatly appreciated as I overlooked the rare world record club stuff. I've got spreads on ASD, SAX, and SXLP/SREG(Regal). Considered doing ASD Living Guide, since no photo references on net. I'm greedily holding onto my info and the size of the task is daunting. I had the STS stuff for the Living SXL Blueback guide and given the bargain that bluebacks represent I thought it was an obvious choice. Here are some hot Regal selections for you and I expect many of these may already be on World Record Club. Posting this and then the Regal in next reply.
SREG 1017 BRAHMS: Symphony No.1 in C minor, Kempe BPO $107.00 ASD 350 ($500) CFP 131
DeleteSREG 1024 IGOR MARKEVITCH - Stavinsky - Le Sacre Du Printemps ASD 313 ($500)
SREG 1060 Mozart: Le Nozze di Figaro, Jurinac, Bruscantini, Sciutti, Stevens; Gui cond The Glyndebourne Festival Orchestra $140.00 ASD274-76($1500)
SREG 1095 BRAHMS LEONID KOGAN KONDRASHIN VIOLIN CONCERTO, PHILHARMONIA ORCHESTRA SAX 2307 YAX 303-6/304-11
SREG 2012 BRUCH violin concerto no 1 - LALO symphonie espagnole , CHRISTIAN FERRAS , PHILHARMONIA ORCHESTRA conducted by WALTER SUSSKIND ASD 314 ($550), CFP 107
SREG 2011 Beethoven Symphony 7, Cantelli, Philharmonia ASD 254 ($360)
SREG 2019 OISTRAKH YAMPOLSKY Encores SAX 2253 ($1300)
SREG 2028 FERRAS, CHRISTIAN Mozart Violin Con.#4 & 5 VANDERNOOT , PCO ASD 427($800), CFP 124 2YLA1085
SREG 2032 CARL ORFF - CARMINA BURANA - STOKOWSKI / HOUSTON SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA Capitol on TAS
SREG 2064 Anna Moffo soprano; Philharmonia Orchestra SAX 2376 ($800)
Those are the big hitters. I have the Moffo above and its pretty nice. The Cantelli Beethoven 7 I am less excited about.
Got my first WRC, but it is STZ from New Zealand. Got a Jubilee of the Grieg/Litoff Curzon and it is quite nice and I find it hard to believe that Salvatore's preferred Alto or Speakers Corner beats it across the board (certainly would in bass I expect.) Also on Saturday, got a number of UK CBS stuff.
DeleteI would steer-clear of any of the c.mid70's compilation boxes, as they had 'crammed' sides - and the selling-point was the overall cheapness of such as the Szell/Brahms..my Ormandy/R.Strauss is as per your description.
ReplyDeleteThe situation isn't the same when auditioning straight single LP issues; when you might find them superior to the MS's,etc.
Oh..now see the Solomon/Menges #1 gets dissed, unheard (the lack of paragraph breaks makes text very dense reading!).
ReplyDeleteI must say, I think the Katchen/LSO/Gamba #5 is a very fine LP - top flight 'Egmont' Ov., too...but only have it as recut(s) on SDD possibly 2/4 are SXL matrices)..and would be one of my favourite Decca Concerti discs for sound.
Originally got that upon its reissue...after various 'rave' reviews...and wasn't disappointed..so tastes vary!
I guess I don't recommend the Solomon Menges because of it expense and rarity and lack of review of the digital version. I see that you like it so I think the readers will take that as a recommendation.
DeleteIts good to hear you like the sound of the Katchen which I think can be had for $200 or so in the original pressing. It sounds like you are recommending it also in some of the later pressings and I doubt the original has a full golden age tube whether on Decca SXL 6109 or London CS6397. SDD 225 and London STS15210. I was not aware of the reissues of the Katchen as both are missed in Charm and our own guide stops before SXL6109. For the price, the reissues should be on everyone's tasting list! Thanks again Tin Ear!
Oops. SXL6109 is not that much, $50 roughly. I still think I'd try the later pressing since that is the one Tin Ear loves.
DeleteHave been listening to the Solomon PC No 1 on ASD 294. I can't remember when I last played it but yes it is a great recording. The Sonata No 27 is also well recorded and I thoroughly enjoyed the performance. Followed it up with Sonatas 13 & 31 on ALP 1900 of which there's no stereo issue, not that it matters, which was released to commemorate Solomon's 60th birthday.
DeleteSolomon Discography here:
Deletehttp://www.arsc-audio.org/journals/v10/v10n2-3p188-209.pdf
AndyW - do you have any of the other Solomon EMI ASD recordings (e.g. Grieg/Schumann PC)? If so, do you have different pressings? I remember owning the Grieg/Schumann years ago but being very unimpressed with the sound. Looking back, I wonder if it's because I had an inferior pressing. My intuition would have me believe that the semi-circle pressing might be better than the original G/C. Thoughts on this?
DeleteYes, I have ASD 272 in both G/C & S/C labels. I must confess that I have never played he G/C version as it has only been played once to transfer to tape but from recollection on playing the SC version the Solomon performance is one of those rare occasions when conductor , orchestra and artiste work in perfect unison and Solomon's technique and artistry shines through. SQ is good on my copy, maybe not the best but form HMV certainly not poor.
DeleteIt looks like the S/C might be the one to get then. With some of these very early ASDs, particularly the Beechams for instance, I have found that there is distortion that seems to be absent on the later SC and postage stamp pressings. That's why I was curious about the Solomon. Thanks for the reply!
DeleteJust listened to the SC tonight. It is very midhall perspective which requires low level listening. It is no dynamic show piece, but I agree with Andy that with the performance it gets the job done. An 8 for me soundwise despite the distant perspective. Played the Rubenstein Schumann shaded dog which has some problematic harshness in the piano and general orchestral sound, but is listenable and likable. I like the Solomon better for the Schumann.
DeleteWhen I escape from Alcatraz I'll test my few copies of #5 on SDD.
ReplyDeleteHave a spreadsheet on WRC..from the 'net..but never corrected/updated it....much is 'popular' stuff..the Regal's I've almost never seen!
Have no idea what Solomon #1 'is now worth'..but all these numbers after the $ sign are pure La-La Land, IMO.
That's what happens when a relatively scarce/antique commodity gets into another market - which can then dictate the price/asset value: they still sell for pennies in UK auctions, etc....
$50 on the Solomon 1 for a NM copy is what I show, so given your recommendation I would consider that a quite affordable gold and cream ASD. I'd love to have your WRC spreadsheet!
DeleteThe Regals are rarer than the originals in truth. Dealers know this so they rarely go ultra cheap though frankly they are no better than a Concert Classic SXLP or a second semi-circle pressing of an ASD. They are overpriced so it is hard to swallow, but given the costs of the original LPs they are worth it I suppose. I have the CFPs of all three on the list above. The only one I really like is the Brahms 1 Kempe which is just an excellent performance. I am not a huge fan of the early CFP sound, so I would expect the Regals of those three would be the best option to the original with a nice tubey sound with tighter bass and more drive. Mind you, I'd kill to hear the original on the Brahms 1, but I suspect I'd be severly disappointed at any where near the going price. I've bid on the Regal Figaro and lost out. I know the general sound of the originals and on a system that can extract every ounce of bass control and tightness, the Regals have the potential to beat the original pressings. On most systems, they will lose by a small amount.
I don't know your knowledge of the early SXLP pressings and the semi-circle ASD. I suspect that the actually cutting equipment might have been the last generation of tube equipment rather than the new solid state that most labels were onto come the mid-sixties. I find all of the EMI pressings to be quite fascinating except for the second label Magic Notes SAX which I just don't like (and this might extend to the Angel pressings not put out on early ASD/SAX. I know you are not a tube lover, but try to bear with me. I just got a 1983 SXLP of Paganini VCs with Menuhin. I am in hopes that it will some how better my beloved semi of this.
Also, I find the sound of early original ASD semi pressings of recordings up into the ASD 600s to be quite odd. I am not a fan of these and yet do like the reissue semi pressings of gold and cream material. My pet theory is that the recording chain was not ideal during the ~ASD 600 period, but I've not quite had the stomach to buy enough of these to firm up this opinion. I imagine at this point that some early transitor devices started appearing in the recording chain.
Another oddity in my mind is the sound of Decca vs. Lyrita given that early Lyrita per recorded and pressed by Decca. Generally I find the Lyritas markedly better. The first 10 or less titles I really like on the Decca pressings and then frankly I find the nimbus pressings quite pleasing across the board. The Lyrita/Decca think is very interesting and would love to hear your views on this and perhaps the whole Decca vs London thing which is nuts. I've been posting over on Audio Karma a bit so you might chime in there if you have strong views on London:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?p=8592723#post8592723
An opportunity to correct me once again!
Remind me that we need to discuss Tournabout-Vox. I seem to recall you liking some of the euro pressings.
I've a laptop containing the 'net spreadsheet (from quite some time back) here, + some memory sticks..but not sure this hospital computer will allow their use (the slots are there, of course) and it does need some correction/expansion..
ReplyDeleteAny prejudice about, say, the boxed 'magic notes' SAX label, would be irrational in cases where the stampers are the same; only the vinyl material (+ some 'theoretical' stamper wear) would change. Quite a few Klemperer's used the same matrices right-through the SAX label sequence..
The finest Lyrita, IMO, are those few stereos, pre-Dolby; markedly more realistic (ie: Ireland 'Mai Dun') than the 'smudged' late 60's-on material.
I never used A-Karma - only, now infrequently, V Asylum..and really need the Lp's to hand to comment sensibly...
Suspect most of my 150 odd Decca/Turnabout's are unplayed by me; but they are revealed (pre-Dolby!) as being near/the equal of Decca's - and far more interesting, musically..
I am quite the collector of boxed magic notes labels and like them quite well and they don't sound like original pressings to me and can be quite bright. I doubt the stampers are the same as earlier records. I must admit we've been through this on ASD with the Sibelius Finlandia on this site. Clearly EMI did reuse stampers. Perhaps some of what I am hearing might be vinyl formulation I suppose. I've acquired a few more of the SAX semi-circle with the magic notes label. I will have to take the time to listen to these very carefully and research the stamper numbers to see if any are from the earlier label.
ReplyDeleteI haven't really written of it, but I have a beloved Blueback copy of CS6097, Nutcracker Highlights and a later pressing. Both are 1E/1E and if you investigate the rest of the dead was information, you can see that the latter FFRR whiteback appears to be from the same mother, just way, way, way down the line in stampers made from the 1E/1E mother. They do not sound alike with the later white back not sounding very tube like or nearly as interesting at all. My guess is that the losses from making so many stampers from the same mother were starting to erase a lot of the fine detail that gives tube recordings their magic. I would have sworn the whiteback was a solid state pressing and that they just reused the 1E/1E stamper name because if was the same engineer, but on the later FFRR label. The additional dead wax info on this whiteback nutcracker makes me think it is simply the product of a worn down mother from which too many stampers were made.
Lyrita, aagh predolby. This also was about the time they started using the Neumann helium cooled cutting setup which certainly has its sound. From what I've read Decca did half speed mastering basically until they went Neumann, so a few of these Lyrita on paper are also half speed mastered. The predolby explains a lot. I have the Lyrita Bliss Music for Strings (SRCS33) and the Nimbus pressing is amazing sounding. I never thought that much of this might be the predolby sound as you call it.
I'd really like some Decca Turnabout, but again the high cost of shipping makes this difficult. Some of the american turnabout is nice, but I am no so sure about the early VOX which was mastered by RVG. Dr. Rudy Van Gelder of jazz fame. I wish some of the full price VOX stuff came out on Decca early on. Turnabout was a budget label like Nonesuch and has a very interesting selection of material, but the vinyl noise levels can be challenging.
While on the subject of Decca, not much discrimination is made in the mastering setups before 1968. To my mind a huge thing is the cutting amplification chain. It seems in 1963 that something really changed in the Decca/London cutting and the LPs lose their all valve sound. I wonder if Decca slowly evolved their system from this point or was it a clean break with valve technology.
I wonder if the 'smudged' 60s sound is also the changes in the cutting setups. Tin Ear, I am surprised that you are denegrating the later Decca sound! Smudged? I must say maybe it is the recordings made later on are the issue because of the use of Dolby? I'd always been more to point the finger at the revered Neumann gear.
Miles, you nailed it. RVG does stand for Rudy Van Gelder, and RVG was "the" recording engineer for the best jazz records of that era. Blue Note. Prestige Records. The original pressings all bear his initials in some form or another and were testament to his great skills. I have heard maybe one or two of his classical recordings and can't say that I was quite as impressed as I am with his jazz. He has a signature piano sound, which many have complained about as sounding "boxy" on his jazz recordings. I wonder if a similar phenomenon would be observed on his classical recordings. Would be worth exploring. But in the world of jazz, RVG was the recording king.
DeleteI'll admit I've a 'thing' about the Dolby A processing of mastertape..but, in my defence, when I started collecting around 1971, most companies used it...those that didn't were encouraged to do so ('tape hiss') - so it was almost 20years later + some earlier issues (not being later subjected to that system, when reissued) that revealed there was much more 'life' available before Dolby..dynamics certainly are 'faster' with a non-Dolby Lyrita..and I tend to be surprised when negative comments aren't made by current 'audiophiles'..because EMG Monthly Letter quite often commented on Decca SXL, etc, having diffuse/subdued treble from the end 60's...
ReplyDeleteYou are listening to everything in the recording/mastering chain; and, now would you really want a 'primitive' system like Dolby compressing/expanding the audio signal...and one respected UK engineer considered the overall effect was a 'sweetening' of the original sound..
Anyway; that's my Rant!
Don't think too much of US mastered Vox..being badly pressed later on..even the Hancock (sp?) 60's mastered Dallas/Johanos's don't excite me..
Have the original USA 2LP Rosbaud Mahler 'Das Lied', mastered by RVG in 1958..(some Vox mono/stereo were imported) and doubt it is all that accurate to the mastertape..very emphasised stereo spread as well.
Have you heard some of the recordings of Aubort and Nickrenz on Vox? Probably the best example I can think of is the complete Ravel Orchestral Works with Skrowaczewski conducting the Minneapolis Orchestra. From my standpoint, one of the most impressive, natural sounding, dynamic orchestral recordings of these works available. I have a few more sealed LPs from this recording duo that I have yet to open (found them for $3 a piece at a record shop in Chicago). Outside of their recordings, I have not been a huge fan of US Vox/Turnabout in terms of pure audio quality.
DeleteWell we can't start the late Decca haters club now. I'm in and my buddies the bassophile and quadophile are candidates. DoblyA....
DeleteThere have been some audioohile reissue of turnabout stuff and it should be on Salvatore's list. I've not found a great vox pressing in the US as surface noise is often an issue among other things. Outside of these reissues I definitely will be on the lookout for the Decca Turnabouts. They did not partner until 1966, so no Golden Age versions of the RVG stuff. I've got quite a bit of these original vox tube cuts and they are troublesome generally. I definitely wished I lived in the UK except maybe for RCA Living Stereo and London Bluebacks.
Of course, I think Nonesuch, Vanguard Everyman, Vanguard, and MHS are not available in the UK, so maybe its not all bad over here except for the EMI stuff.
DeletePicked up the Vox Box of the Ravel this weekend. Listened to SCRS 31 on Lyrita and yes its got more life. Perhaps the later Decca sound is both the dolby A sound and the Neumann mastering. Got a Porgy and Bess London box sealed and liner poly was really stuck to them. Unbelievably noisy, but wet cleaning corrected.
DeleteNonesuch had various UK distributors (Transatlantic, CBS, Warner ?..) but the US masterings (1960's by Decca/MCA..1970's by Sterling, etc.were used here.
ReplyDeleteVanguard through most of the '60's were Philips UK mastered..then RCA UK..PYE..so are unlikely to be overly 'audiophile' compared to US editions.
It wasn't a 'rant' especially about Decca..but later 'buying into' the back-catalogue did reveal that Dolby stuff (from all companies) had a 'coloration'..so the emphasis about 'tube' sound/cutting equipment may not be the complete picture.
The Ravel/VOX I did previously comment upon..was tempted to do so re: the 'Living Decca' guide..but was not best placed (sic!) to do so...but some useful? points could've been added.
As I'm in a higher Ward I've 'net access today from my laptop..so here's the WRC spreadsheet - as mentioned there are a few mistakes - and it's not totally complete..(at least I know some are missing)...
ReplyDeletehttp://www47.zippyshare.com/v/rcA5GzW2/file.html
I got the Epic blue label of Fleisher/Szell PC2&4 Saturday. I am hoping it surprises me like the Brahms PC 1 Oddyssey reissue.
ReplyDeleteJust acquired EPIC BC 1025 which just has Fleischer/Szell doing the 4th along with Mozart PC. The sound is quite nice for an EPIC and strongly recommended as it does the performance more than justice (Epic gold labels can be noisy so be prepared to give your record cleaner a workout.) I also got the original EPIC of the Brahms 1 and will report back on that eventually under the Brahms posting! I must say that some of the early Capitol and Epic are quite fine records. I just got a six-eye Columbia of Walter doing Mahler 9 and that was really, really bad. Still listening to the fourth and the EPIC is well epic.
ReplyDeleteThe Epic Gold Label of the Emporer also has very adequate sound and with such a great performance it is a sound acquisition.
DeleteWow - I wouldn't have thought that you would like the Epic pressing that much. Would be interesting to compare with the UK Columbia pressing of that same album. I would imagine better sound floor on the UK.
DeleteI'd get the Epic. I think it came out much earlier too. It communicates the performance well enough and the piano sound quite well on my system.
DeleteIn addition to the five aforementioned piano concertos there was also the Piano Concerto in D, Op.61A - the violin concerto arranged for Piano & Orchestra. This was recorded by RCA on LSC 3152 with Peter Serkin and the New Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Seiji Ozawa (1st ever recording?).
ReplyDeleteI have this on a UK factory sample test pressing for LSB 4008 in a plain white cover that has the RCA release administration document with it. It is signed and dated approved for clearance 22nd September 1970 with a release date on 16th October 1970. That is interesting is that there is a note that states "Tape arrived 7/9/70, to go to Decca Studios". So it would seem that RCA sent tapes over to the UK rather than mothers.
The jury's still out on whether the the piano transcription works and I find the piano tone lacks any warmth. That said the SQ is reasonable but this is a test pressing so may not be representative of the issued version.
Not to be outdone, Turnabout Vox has this piece and the Piano Concerto 0 which Beethoven wrote at age 13. I may have this floating around.
DeleteBlast! Not only do I have Galling's Turnabout, but I've got the Serkin, and several copies Blumenthal doing the same pieces (into the listening pile they go!)
DeleteA note, Epic was founded by American Columbia and still owned by Sony along with American Columbia. Epic issued fewer Classical releases when Philips purchased Mercury in 1961, and the Philips recordings later got issued on the Philips label domestically, the remaining Classical artists on Epic got moved to Columbia Masterworks, and Epic became a Pop, Country, and sometimes R&B label as the years wore on.
ReplyDeleteThanks for adding to the discussion! Have you come across our discussions about the George Szell Epic vs UK Columbia pressings?
Delete