EMI HMV ASD 267: Cluytens does the Beethoven 5
Beethoven Fifth Symphony, "Leonore" Overture No. 3
Andre Cluytens, conductor
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Pressing: UK, ED1, white/gold
Condition: EX
Date first published: 1958
Stampers:
2YRA 1044-13
2YRA 1045-10
Performance: 8/10
Sound: 7/10Price range: $30-253 (mean $102) on popsike.com
Comments: Some of you might recall that Andre Cluytens actually beat out Herbert von Karajan to recording the first complete set of Beethoven's symphonies with the Berlin Philharmonic in stereo. EMI released many of these originally on the French EMI label*:
Pathe FALP 30231-9: 9 LP box set
ASDF 105/106: Symphonies #8-9
ASDF 107: Symphony #5
ASDF 110: Symphony #3
ASDF 140: Symphony #4
ASDF 172: Symphony #6
ASDF 173: Symphony #7
ASDF 194: Symphony #1
Symphonies #5 and 6 were released in the UK on the ASD series as ASD 267 and 433, and the rest were released as part of EMI's Classics for Pleasure series (CFP 187 (#1), 193 (#2), 40076 (#3), 40007 (#5, 8), 40017 (#6), 40018 (#7), 40019 (#9)), culminating in the complete 8 LP box set (CFP 48999).
Every Beethoven fan will have his or her own favorite recording(s) of the 5th, and the catalog is at no loss of options, analog or digital. My current vinyl picks include Carlos Kleiber and the VPO on DG, George Szell and the RCO on Philips, Lorin Maazel and the BPO on DG, and Antal Dorati and the LSO on Mercury. This is a fine performance of the Beethoven 5th with excellent playing overall by the BPO. My copy had some mild surface noise, as might be expected. I found the orchestral sound to be warm and full. Like many of these early tube stereo EMI recordings, the presentation is more distant, giving way to a soundstage that is deeper than wide. Louder passages are marked by some mild distortion on this pressing. Being a believer in the quality of the Classics for Pleasure budget reissues, I would wager that the CFP of this album (CFP 40007) would have cleaned up this extraneous noise and offered greater clarity and therefore might be the most economical and enjoyable way to hear this performance on vinyl. If any readers have heard the CFP and can comment, I'd greatly appreciate it.
*Information regarding discography obtained from the website of Youngrok Lee
Almost bought I one, but no.
ReplyDeleteThe original recording is crap and wouldn't give it 1/5...not even worth the nickel/dime it cost for a new ccpy..
ReplyDeleteThe difference between the ASD: mine a flat label 1962 ZT -matrices: 20(!!)/10, is it's cut at a higher level with the additional 'antique mastering distortion' on top of the distorted/flattened original tape sound (CFP 40007 is on 1 side: have two matrices 3G + 4).
For something 'Miles Better': CFP40018 is an absolute winner (Beethoven 7: matrices 1/1 - was, as with a few more, previously on SXLP) - and beats the pants for recording quality/performance of CFP103 Cantelli (which had a 1958 matrix 4 for side 2) and my 1963 copy of SXLP20038 (Davis/RPO: matrices 3/4)
Haha -- thanks for the info, Tin Ear. The point that I've been trying to make in the last several posts is that so many of these "coveted" EMI/Columbia recordings that sell for hundreds of dollars (mostly the early ASDs or SAXes) are price inflated and their collectibility has nothing whatsoever to do with their high sound quality. Salvatore in his own assessment was spot on here. I had to learn this the hard way and would like other collectors to be aware of this.
DeleteAnd was your 1/5 only a sound rating or were you also panning the performance?
DeleteLife is too short (relatively) to bother with 'also rans'.
ReplyDeleteThe recording simply gets in the way of the performance (though, in 1959, 'EMG Monthly Letter' complained about 'vulgar theatrical/ham rhetorical gestures' in mvt.1).
I mistakenly put the stylus down near the end of 'Leonore' - and was appalled (despite the 20th mastering) by the awful sound-quality - so wouldn't bother getting 5/8 on CfP even 'cheaply'.
Not heard some of the others (don't have no.4)
The Symphony 2 was also on an ASDF.
Funnily, acquired the Pittsburg/Steinberg 'Pastoral' on a 1966 MfP (2011) - and, Big Surprise, it was original 1953 Decca matrices being used - in excellent sound (almost a bigger surprise!)...and, staying on Pastoral's; in the same 'lot' got the 1st, mono only, Cluytens/BPO (ALP1408) - luckily EMI Hayes mastered each side - as my 'library copy' was later (c.1960) - with an utterly execrable Pathe-Marconi 'wet-string' transfer of side 1...
I have yet to acquire any of the French EMI's and am curious as to the sound. From the sound of your comment, your Cluytens was a disaster. The Schuricht Beethoven was all released on French EMI, too, and those go for a fortune. Any thoughts on these?
Delete(I'm not in the market to buy the Schuricht, since I got them all newly digitally transferred as part of EMI/Warner's Icon series ... very pleased with that)
DeleteOnly have a few Pathe matrices (EMI rarely imported them) on W/G ASD: 430 (Berlioz/Cluytens - wasn't too bad - 496 Poulenc, et al/Pretre - maybe OK) + 576 (the first Semi?) Gluck/Alceste - Pretre (ditto)...and don't think those got EMI UK reissues...thus not enough to sensibly comment upon; but am not keen on Pathe/Elctrola right to the early '80s due to a lack of transparency compared to Hayes masterings.
DeleteIt must be embarrassing for collectors to spend a Fortune on these things - knowing, aside from the ever increasing monetary appreciation, that you may as well play most on an early '60's Stereo Radiogram!
I couldn't agree with you more. My "mission" to collect and characterize the EMI ASD and Columbia SAX series has thus far lead me to the conclusion that much of the hype is an illusion. Yes, perhaps collectors appreciate the warm, valve sound, but in return they get records that are mostly distorted and far from what I would consider to be "audiophile". And so much for "first pressing" mystique ... I am not convinced in the least that first pressings have any more sonic value in the EMI/Columbia catalog than some of the later pressings or even reissues. Fortunately, as you mention, the monetary appreciation has enabled me to part with many of these pieces in such a way that the investments have been worth it. Interestingly, the big collectors all hail from Japan, South Korea, and China ... very few of whom appear to be reading this blog according to the stats. =)
DeleteYou're right, I'd bet that the records sound better on a portable turntable than on any resolving system.
Well you just have to have the right pressing and things are "miles better". I think the down grading of EMI has gotten out of control on this site recently! I hate to say it but on some of the really nice systems in the area often the original is preferred (some have $50k alone in turntable area.). EMI's strongest suit is tight bass and if your system is not excelling in this area then you aren't hearing the whole story. The market price of these LPs may be slightly irrational, but it is not completely out of its mind as recently characterized. That being said I think we are all agreed at least that the reissues are the best value hands down.
DeleteThe criticism of recent days has nothing to do with any personal bias I have against EMI. On the contrary, there are many EMI's that I rank very highly in my collection (I just haven't gotten to them yet on this site). However, in a number of cases, the recordings were fabulous but not the original records, and I am trying to be as objective as possible. We have agreed that the reissues (and even digital transfers, in my opinion) surpass the originals in terms of overall sonic quality. Okay, maybe a $50,000 system might enhance the bass, but the individuals that own these systems represent a small minority of listeners and collectors, so I think it's fair to present albums how the majority of listeners/collectors are likely to hear them -- on a mid- to high-fi system. And to say that EMI's strongest suit was tight bass is, in my opinion, an oversimplification of the music and its presentation. I can't imagine that anyone at EMI was walking around saying, "We have tighter bass than Decca". The point is to capture as accurately as possible the spirit and details of a performance, and while bass depth is an important component of capturing the realism, it does not make up for sloppiness in the midrange or treble or a constricted soundstage or distortion. I would challenge a $50,000 to eliminate this distortion that is inherent to these recordings.
DeleteMy point, as I was trying to state earlier, is that I am trying to dispel any myths that the price of a collectible record is directly proportional to its sound quality. It simply isn't true, and I know that you know this from your own experience.
I think how the record sound on the best possible system is very relevant. just as we don't care what the LP sound like on a portable record player we also don't care so much what they sound like even on an entry level high End system. the system one plays back on is a huge factor. I want to know how great an LP can sound on the perfect systemfor it. That is the test
DeletePoint well taken, but I don't think that this means that collectors should have to own a $50,000+ audio system to be able to enjoy the music of a particular record. Most of us will never in our lifetimes have the ability to own such a system.
DeleteThese Vintage LP's are typically a world-removed from the top-flight master-tapes.
DeleteThe distortion (or generally inferior sonics) can be pretty chronic - and there's little difference to be obtained to 1970's playback - when such equipment revealed the later masterings to be superior.
The only reason for the fairly recent 'collectors value'/hysteria is that a finite supply was assumed by overseas buyers for such material: thus they became 'a trade-able asset' with inflated pricing when imported into their market: eBay now allowing direct imports - but at their 'local valuations'...ie: the Japanese, some 15+ years back, assumed there were no more than >6< copies of the de Vito ASD in the UK.
How else would you explain the early '80's valuations: my London shop T/S copy of the above Klemperer Mendelssohn/Schumann was £1.50 in 1986...my recent auction material showed this 'secondhand' type, in 1970-odd, with =£1.25 tags.
I'm assuming that folks with a $50,000 turntable to stick their piece of floppy plastic upon have no real interest in putting a late '70's SXLP reissue to compare: if they did they'd realise how poor these EMI originals actually are (and the SXLP's are still inferior to the tapes..!).
BTW: the only LP's I have heard with 'tight bass' are DMM/Digital...try getting/finding ASV DCA586 (Tchaikovsky: The Tempest +Liszt -LSO/Butt: 1987) and then point me to >any< of these EMI's which have similar bass power/slam/extension.
Thanks for your input, Tin Ear. While none of this discussion is likely to change buying or bidding patterns from Asia, where the cash flow to inflate these prices seems boundless, hopefully it will give others some additional insight into the "practical value" of these LPs.
DeleteI love this discussion/debate. Unfortunately, I've been a bad audiophile for quite some time as I've been working heavy on completing my house (days away). For example (last night I fell asleep at the switch on the first album). So, I am ill prepared listening wise to make definitive comments on EMI as I've not listened to the later pressings heavily enough to put the sound to words.
DeleteI will come up swinging and state that Tin and Aqlam are both being Luddites. Here we have this incredible surge in value and in interest for EMI LP's (far and away the highest valuations for any label and I am not sure that Decca out sold EMI originally.) Electric Recording Company is attempting to make restoration quality pressings at $500 a piece and selling out. Somebody is hearing something in general and really likes these LP's. It is primarily and audiophile phenomenon where performance and sound combine to make people really want these LP's. Kogan Violin Concerto has sold on ebay around 40 times over the last ten years for as much as $10,000. Buyers viewing these LP's as investments might be the case, but I have not seen a lot of selling out of Asia so they may just be normal collectors looking for the ultimate LP who lose their mind once in a while (Aqlam knows.) Some stuff is more rare like the Szell SAX stuff and there we have some people who want that performance in the best possible sound (albeit still mediocre). EMI has the best cover quality and I am sure there are some who would want every LP just for the covers (Tin I need more tips on shining my covers).
Why do some like the sound of the vintage EMI? Well if you have ever heard an original Golden Age tube RCA, Decca, Mercury, and now EMI click on a tube system, they are very, very nice. That sound experience cannot be had with a solid state sourced recording as the source. The sound is extremely life like more so in the microdynamics than macrodynamics. I had the pleasure of a perfect seat with perfect sound with an orchestra this summer (playing in front of the stage) and it sounded very much like this sound except when the orchestra really cranked up and then well these LP's get left in the dust in the bass (treble might be a little more possible on the right system with these LP's). The tube sonic signature is quite powerful when it clicks right and that is a funny thing as you'll have a handful that click on your own system and you'll hear of others and then the disappointment begins.
One of the allures for EMI for me is the consistent high quality of the pressings. The originals have their sound, but the reissues are fascinating. All the way up until the late 1980's EMI made amazing pressings to my ears. The only ones that generally don't have strong sound for me have been the Columbia second pressings and early original pressings on the second ASD label ("semi'), up into the later ASD 600s.
Though my listening to the later pressings is far from complete, my general take on EMI is quite different from the Great One's (Salvatore) recent statement on EMI stating the later recordings are better than the earlier Golden Age material from EMI. Salvatore advocates some audiophile reissues of this material. I've got quite a few Alto reissues and some Testament LP reissues of the 1970's material and my feeling is quite the opposite. The later EMI recordings are very, very good, but the reissues have been very shaky to date in the midrange and palbability area. I am not sure much more can be done and these EMI are ultimately limited. My listening is far from complete, but this is my experience so far.
continuing...
DeleteMatching one's audio system to what you like to listen to is critical. Salvatore's site goes into great detail on what is state of the art and similar systems will no doubt excel with the Supreme Recordings. It is quite the process to assemble a great system that will play back one's favored LP's to their utmost. Unfortunately, you can't have it all. I just heard another Lyrita on the Quadophiles evolving system and it is a sonic feast, some of my other demi-gods and other Supreme Recordings do well on that system, but the Lyriti on the whole continue to shock. All I can do back home is keep working with my system, but my dynamic drivers will never exceed the Quads in some parameters. One's own sound ranking of LP's is system dependent.
I am in the process with my own of optimizing my sound floor (by attacking noise floor primarily) and I have gotten tremendous results. I am trying to work away from 1.0mV output Benz Ruby H and I lust after Salvatore's transformers, but my basic system is not a good candidate for step up transformers because the preamp is high gain and would only benefit from a custom wound transformer of very moderate gain and somehow I just am not believing that adding a step up transformer to get to the low output Benz Ruby (LPS!) in place of the H makes a lot of sense (Benz currently not making cartridges due to health issues with the cartridge guru.) I could switch my entire front end to match Salvatore's but it is too much to do and will I love it? (probably won't like my vintage LP's as much). No one is running top flight step ups around here for phono and they've tried some, so it is a very tough call. These are examples of the choices one faces and it is tough to assemble and fine tune a system, but the amazing thing as it gets better, smaller changes actually make bigger differences.
Finally, I'll claim for EMI that with quite a few titles they have the best combination of sound and performance and its just a matter of deciding what pressings suit one's system. EMI is a strong phenomena in the collecting world right now that I believe started with little encouragement from the audiophile press, so as much we and Supreme Recordings question the value of the original pressings I doubt we will change prices much because some will always lust for that tube sound.
Thank you for your thoughtful comments as always, Miles. Again, I have to clearly state that I am not denigrating the records that EMI/Columbia produced from the 1950s-1970s. I treasure the performances and sound quality of many of these and have posted on less than 1% of their vinyl catalog (I don't own anywhere near their entire catalog), which is vast and yes, contains countless albums of superb performance and sound. I could go on about the covers, too, since at least the golden age covers (I don't care all that much for the later ASD covers of the 1970s-80s) have some of the most beautiful artwork for a classical record and were certainly a lure for me as a collector. And while I am no photographer, this is also why I take the time to photograph the covers for others to see. The tube sound, as you also stated, on the best recordings of the era can be very natural and "magical" -- the one that did it for me originally was the Kurtz Nutcracker white/gold pressing. After having heard that, I was convinced that I needed to hear all the other tube era recordings, believing that they would all (or at least most) sound that way. In this adventure, which I might add was quite costly, I came to discover that there was great variability in the sound quality of these records and that one could not, as a principle, go around professing that these albums were all of high quality. Having learned this the hard way (one could also argue why on earth I decided to do this experiment in the first place --- blame it on my scientific nature), I wanted to share my discoveries with those who might be interested in the same question. Hence, the creation of this blog. Now, while the posts of the last week have been of a more critical nature, I have certainly praised albums that I thought were excellent (and some of my praise was not necessarily shared by other readers, including yourself, my friend), and yes, the golden era of stereo recordings did produce a number of gems. It also produced a number of duds, and I'm not shy about reporting these. Whatever my opinion may be, there will be those that collect for all sorts of reasons, and they will buy the album for $100-$10,000 anyway. Such is the diversity of human nature.
DeleteI don't know what to say about the EMIs that have sold for 5 digit prices. The Kogans are nice, but are they noticeably sonically superior to the Oistrakh recordings? I think that an image is created over a brand, and then the collectors do the rest of the work to turn that image into some sort of holy grail. There cannot be enough of these Kogans in circulation for that many people to have critically listened to the records, and most of those that have cirtically listened have not shared their thoughts with the rest of us. Now, I think it's a great thing that ERC has gone through the trouble to re-create these LPs detail by detail, and there may be a good chance that these sound better than the originals, but I will have to hang my hat for now on the budget CFP reissues that are more affordable for the rest of us.
I've built up quite a work load of listening and tweaking to do to my system. I have enough gain for a typical low output cartridge, but it will push my volume control to the point where I must remove my shunting and I'll be back to huge 4 and 5 db steps in the critical liistening range. I am also due to move my speaker all the way out to 1/3rd the way in the listening room. This should gain me about 3 db (half the way there on the 6 db I need to move down in output from a Ruby H) and take some of the pressure off my amps too. I currently am looking at a Placette volume control which will give me the fine steps, but presents a 9k load to my preamp (volume control at end of preamp rather than in front of line stage circuit.) I've already down the calculations to simulate this load via shunting before getting the Placette and that is coming up soon (resistors sitting by preamp). Due to issues in the room the speaker move will necessitate bringing the speakers closer together so I will lose some soundstage width. I badly want a Benz LPS, but they are no longer being made for the time being. Switching out of the Benz family to Lyra or Clearaudio will be a bit more upsetting to the sound of my system. Unfortunately, cartidges like the Zyx Universe II are loo low in output to be a contender, so I may eventually have to go for a used LPS if these moves work well.
DeleteThis is an excellent performance. I rank it up with Szell/Cleveland; Kleiber/Concertebouw; Reiner/CSO; Monteux/LSO; and Rodzinski/LPO. Each is different, and I wrote a short review for them. As for sound, only the aforementioned Monteux and the early 1960's Karajan/BP is in the same class. Again, each is different. I found this recording to have a deep, back of the hall sound. More like a lot of old LSC recordings. The sound of the brass is outstanding. The recording is not as detailed as the Monteux, but perhaps more natural sounding. The performance sits between the styles of Rodzinski and Monteux - lyrical, but with force. I prefer it to Szell/Concertebouw; Walter/Columbia; Walter/NPO; Karajan/BPO; Krips/LSO; Solti/VPO; Scherchen/LPO and Prohaska/VSO. I review all of the government and still have eight of the top ranked - I parted ways with the rest. My tonearm are Wheaton Triplanar , Grado (from the 1980s) and Dyanavector DV-505. Preamp that include (currently) PAC Pro-Reference iiB, VTL Ultimate, Paragon 12, Paragon 12a, Counterpoint SA 5.1, Melo GK1+1, Eroica Phoenix70, and a few others. My amps are indescribable in brief, and would require more time on this iPad than I care to spend. My speakers range from Edgarhorns , Altec 755c (and other efficient old classics) to large inefficient transmission line speakers such as the IMF TLS-80, Cambridge R50, Fried Model R2 (these last three having crossover upgrade/improvements ) and speaker with characteristics that fall in between. To wrap it up, my copy of this record was bought in a Goodwill store for $1.00, is in mint minus condition , has the dead wax nomenclature of 2YRA 1044-15 G 1... and... 2YRA 1045-10 G 1 (with a 2 under the 1). Oh, and while I am sure that none of you want it, let me be clear, my positive comments about it are sincere, and the record is not for sale.
ReplyDeleteDear C.G.,
DeleteThank you very much for taking the time to comment on this post. While my sound rating for this record at the time was not the highest, I agree with you that the performance is excellent. You can't beat a $1 mint minus copy -- nice find! Sadly, I listened, reviewed, and sold this album before I switched over to all-tube gear, which has since changed my sonic perceptions of many of my records. It would be nice to give it another listen or two on the new system. Also, I have to come to greater appreciate the variation in sound quality that comes with different stampers/pressings.
You mentioned that you had reviewed the other recordings ... are these available to read on a site of your own?
Best wishes,
Albert
CG,
DeleteThose Melos GK 1+1s are very unreliable, You should sell it to me and I'll make sure it is well cared for and loved.
Auto correct changed a few things. Obviously, I didn't type the word government. That sentence should read, "I reviewed all of the above, and still have eight of the top ranked." Happy listening to all! ~C.G.
ReplyDeleteCG,
DeleteGlad to see you demure with the rating of this LP. I recently got a nice batch of World Record Club, many with original stampers. It has been interesting to here them on mulitple systems. The Kogan Lalo Symphonie Espagnole has varied in sound greatly from system to system. All of these are great, great sounding systems with $3000 plus MC cartridges, etc. I won't got into much detail, but having the right preamp and phono stage is important with vintage EMI. I am glad you reported your strong regard for the original pressing as only a few of these were released as Golden Age EMI LPs. On my own system, these original pressings are sounding very, very special.