SAX 2397: Klemperer conducts Schubert's "Great" Symphony
Columbia SAX 2397
Schubert: Symphony in C Major "The Great"
Philharmonia Orchestra
Otto Klemperer, conductor
Pressing: UK, ED1, blue/silver
Date first published: 1961
Stampers: YAX 691-3, YAX 692-6
Performance: 9/10
Sound: 7/10
Price range: $29-211 (mean $86) on popsike.com
Comments: Another great recording of the Schubert "Great" C Major Symphony. Klemperer and the Philharmonia give a majestic performance. The sound on this album is warm and tubey with good dynamic range, better clarity, and relatively less distortion than many of the Columbia SAX albums recently reviewed on this blog. There is occasionally a certain brightness, particularly with the brass, that can sound a little harsh at times. As far as overall combination of performance and sound quality is concerned, I may still side with Istvan Kertesz and the VPO on Decca/London, but this one is definitely worth checking out. Semi-circle and magic notes pressings are available, though I'm unable to comment on their sound quality.
I have this on blue/silver and semi circle. Stampers are the same for both 3/6. Both sleeves have the large wonky stereo logo so they are from a similar period. I have compared the two and my notes state that I found no discernible difference in SQ except for a little crackle on the first couple of rotations on side 1 of the blue silver which is most likely some groove wear from past cuing.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the quick reply! That is good to know, and I'm sure my colleague Meles will have something to say about that. He hates semi-circle pressing SAXes and prefers the 3rd label. He and I differ with regards to our opinions on this.
DeleteWhat are you thoughts about the performance and do you have any personal favorites of Schubert's "Great"?
DeletePersonally I have found the semi circle ASD and SAX more often than not have a better overall balance of SQ and noise floor than the earlier labels, There are exceptions of course but when you weigh in the $$$£££ equation there is often no contest. The magic notes period are also vey good and are probably one of the best bargains to be found when buying classical vinyl
ReplyDeleteI'm very catholic when it comes to Schubert's 9th as I have lots of favourites
I like and have, In no order of preference:
Klemperer Philharmonia SAX
Kertesz VPO SXL
Barbirolli Halle ASD
Boult LSO ASD
Mehta Israel PO SXL
Davis Boston SO Philips
Solti VPO Decca SXDL
Krips LSO Decca SXL
Haitink Concertgebrow Philips
I'm with you on the semi-circle vs WG or blue/silver comparison. I do find, somehow, that semi-circles of ASDs sound better than semi-circles of SAXes. For instance, a bad ASD white/gold pressing can sound much better in its semi-circle incarnation. I haven't yet found a semi-circle second pressing of a SAX to be sonically superior to its blue/silver, though I've had limited supply for comparison. For instance, I bought a NM copy of Klemperer's Beethoven Choral Symphony as semi-circle (paid way too much for that, by the way) and was not impressed with the sound. Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to hear the blue/silver, which could potentially sound better, but the point is that the semi-circle was not great. On the flip-side, the semi-circle of Klemperer's Mendelssohn Midsummer Night's Dream was quite good and probably approached the greatness of the blue/silver original. There doesn't seem to be a great science to this.
DeleteThat's a solid list of Schubert Greats. I haven't heard the Barbirolli, Boult, Mehta, Davis, Solti, or Haitink. I don't know if you also listen to CDs, but if you do, have you heard the 2 CD set of Sandor Vegh conducting the Camerata Salzburg in Schubert's 5-9th? It's fabulous.
We have a resources section on all of these acronym's for all the EMI labels. I definitely call ASD 2nd label semi. Technically the second SAX label actually says "magic notes" and the third label which AndyW and many call "magic notes" does not evey say magic notes. Given that the semi ASD sounds very different from the 2nd label SAX (a similar looking label), are guide calls the 2nd label "magic" and the 3rd label "notes".
DeleteAnyway, the "magic" SAX to these ears are not great sounding pressings. The notes are very different and extended sounding and similar to some of the later Columbia pressings done as Studio Two Stereo. For some this systems this can be a dry strange sound, but I often think the "notes" are outstanding. Aqlam has better luck on his system with "magic" SAX and less so with the 3rd label "notes".
I must say on both original labels when I've done comparisons on other very high end systems I've still heard the strengths of the ASD semi, and various postage stamps, but other listeners have liked the originals better. I am constantly evolving my system with seemingly small changes (like tubes) that have taken me towards a much more solid state sound while still being tube (gross simplification here). If your system is really tilted towards the midrange tube glow kind of a sound, it really affects how you rank these albums. I've been on a bit of a tear with decca, rca, and not so much EMI.
I think the best we can do is group these to similar sounds kind of like my above assertion on "notes" and Studio Two pressings. So little is known. I am quite confident that SAX and ASD were cut with a different sound as seperate labels. What would really be something is to know if SAN Angel and the other emi labels had a distinct mastering sound. Are SXLP Concert Classics and CFP Classics for pleasures mastered by the same engineers as the main EMI labels?
It is a fun hobby, but EMI has so many decent pressings its kind of daunting bargain hunting. Its easy if you want originals, just fork out the money and you are done.
Furtwangler getting down with the Great:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvcJz2FDxpU
Any other speed demons out there?
The Barbirolli (ASD 2251) was in the catalogue a long time and therefore easy to find, S/C label is the earliest. Like most of Barbirolli's recordings his style is warm and lyrical. The Boult is also a god recording. Neither are expensive.
DeleteI have SAX 227/77 on the blue/silver label and I'm not that impressed with the SQ so it may not be better than your semi. The Szell version is better on SAX.
I rarely buy CD's nowadays, but do buy the occasional SACD. I've not listened to the Vegh recording but I'll possibly give it a try.
You have the Szell Beethoven 9th SAX?!? That one is incredibly hard to find, and then when you do, unaffordable! The other nice Szell SAX is the 7th (love the cover). I had the Szell Schubert Great SAX (reviewed here, too) but couldn't fall in love with the sound. It was a real sonic disappointment considering its high cost.
DeleteAndy, not sure if you are new to the blog or have been following for a while, but feel free to check out some of our older reviews. You're really well versed on these recordings and your thoughts/insights/opinions would be greatly appreciated!
DeleteYes the fun is in the hunting and the discovery. I'll try to stick to your naming protocols but I won't promise I'll get it right.
DeleteThe different sound between HMV and SAX is interesting. Have you read "On and off the record" a memoir of Walter Legge by Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, published by Charles Scribner's Sons. It may offer some insight into your theory as the final product with regard to SAX recordings was determined by what Legge wanted to hear.
At the moment the fun bargain hunting I am having is with the World Record Club issues. They were pressed by EMI who eventually bought them circa 1965. Not only did they re-issue some great and rare ASD and SAX recordings but they produced their own original recordings and issued works from other record companies both internal and external such as Eurodisc, Westminster, Ariola, Erato, EMI Italy, Odeon, Capitol, Everest, Electrola etc.The pressing quality of the Everest recordings is certainly better than the originals
I have the Szell 9th and the 5th. The real revelation is the pre recorded 4 track RtR tapes I have of the Szell 9th and 8th (which also comes with Schumann's 4th) on EPIC BSC 112 & BC 1254. I got these a few years ago on an eBay auction from the US. There were 22 new sealed RtR tapes of top flight EPIC, London, Mercury, RCA and Westminster classical recordings. The Westminster Morini Brahms VC SWB 9005 is still sealed.
DeleteI only found this blog about a month ago but I'll take time to have a look back through the archives. There's certainly a lot of interesting information and insightful comment here.
One of our main goals in writing this blog has been to engage music lovers and collectors like yourself. Like you said, the fun is in the hunt, and it's also in the fireside chats before and after the hunt. Thanks for following and for all your comments!
DeleteRtR tapes ... now that is pretty darn cool. My dad used to have one of those players in the early 80s but probably has done away with it. My buddy Eric picked up several of these tapes for Mercury Living Presence and RCA Living Stereo recordings, if I remember properly. I'll have to ask him which ones he found. How is the comparison between the tapes and vinyl?
DeleteGot the Boult LPO,(not LSO) so I'll take a listen.
ReplyDeleteThat Legge book is easy to get even in hardcover so that is a must. Thank you. Don't worry about our naming conventions, Aqlam doesn't. Just looking for maybe a better way to name those labels and I don't know that there is one.
ReplyDeleteThe Wrc Are very interesting. They are almost nonexistent in the USA. And the shipping from the UK makes them not so much of a bargain here for us. Would love to hear what you find with those. Also, I would love to hear more about tapes. Is your playback very high-end? Do you have a great tape machine? I've heard that there are some new tape machines that rival top-of-the-line analog playback. I've heard reel to reel in the past of some RCA shaded dogs, and preferred the vinyl.
ReplyDeleteThe Wrc Are very interesting. They are almost nonexistent in the USA. And the shipping from the UK makes them not so much of a bargain here for us. Would love to hear what you find with those. Also, I would love to hear more about tapes. Is your playback very high-end? Do you have a great tape machine? I've heard that there are some new tape machines that rival top-of-the-line analog playback. I've heard reel to reel in the past of some RCA shaded dogs, and preferred the vinyl.
ReplyDeleteI have about 35 pre recorded RtR tapes, all 7.5 pips. Playback kit is a Pioneer RT-707 which is very good for the pre recorded tapes. I used to have a Telefunken M10 Studio Tonband complete with V86 / V87 record/ replay amps but that went some years ago but was more suitable for master tapes than the pre recorded ones. Tape at 7.5 pips is usually far superior to vinyl unless any tape degradation has happened. The rest of my equipment is vintage, I suppose you could call it high-end as it is mainly professional studio and cinema kit from the 1950,s through to the 1970s with a couple of later bits thrown in.
DeleteFascinating. While I do not have the ability to invest in tape playback at this point, I still find it very intriguing. Is your main hi-fi setup a tube system?
DeleteTapes can be crazy cheap and I've seen 15 ips stuff. Long ago I knew someone with Sony Reel to Reel tube unit and that was where I got my impression. I've heard word of new deluxe audiphile units for $20,000 that are supposed to rival the best in analog playback. I'm not doing that, but I see RT-707 can be had for less than $500. Any other bargain units out their (especially for tube snobs)?
DeleteI have a few pairs of English tube amps and some solid state as well. I have a choice between a number of speakers, BTH K10A which are 18" dual concentrics that use the same bass cones as Western Electric 4181a's. or Westrex 2326A which have a 2080 bass driver (comparable to an Altec 505) and reversed 2090 compression drivers (Altec 288) or JBL Array 1400 or Philips 9200M full range in Lowther horn loaded cabinets. Turntables are EMT 930ST, EMT 938 or Garrard 401. Preamp is a rare Toft LBPA5. Plus lots of other kit.
ReplyDeleteThat is some serious vintage gear. Which turntable do you use most often? Those Garrard 401's are hard to come by in good shape. Meles convinced me last fall to go from all solid-state to all tube. Based on some discussion and strongly influenced by Arthur Salvatore's recommendations, I sold all my extraneous equipment and went for Coincident phono and power amps. No line stage intermediate, since the phono can serve as a line stage as well. My table is the same that I've had since 2004 - a VPI Aries 1. I recently upgraded my cartridge to a used (but with low hours) Lyra Kleos. These changes have completely quenched my audio nervosa.
DeleteThere was a time before I made these changes that I did consider the idea of exploring vintage. Back in medical school, I briefly owned a 1970s Marantz stereo receiver (2275 I believe) that was sturdy as a tank but gave too much hum. I was using my dad's Scott speakers with it. Was there a reason you decided to go with vintage as opposed to more modern audiophile equipment?
AndyW,
DeleteIs this your system?:
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?9156-Hi-nice-to-find-this-forum/page3
You are really out there with the horn equipment it looks like and the Toft. I'd bet you'd like Aqlam's Coincident Frankenstein amp. Friend of mine in town just built parallel 45 single ended amp that is supposed to be unbelievable with a power 4 watts per channel. Tin Ear and ourselves keep an eye on Maestro Salvatore's site. With those high sensitivity speakers I would think you would get major improvements attacking the "sound floor"/noise floor with a minimal signal path approach. I've always wondered about the supposed superiority of low output moving coils when they require an extra amplification stage. I've yet to go for a high sensitivity setup, but I've thought about it. If I lose my mind Edgar horns always sounded very interesting:
http://hornloudspeakermagazine.blogspot.com/2009/11/edgar-and-danley-where-military-get.html
Hmm. I could park subwoofers in my garage rather than my car...
I tend to use the EMT 930 when listening through speakers and the 938 when listening on headphones as I can plug directly into the onboard phono amp. The 401 is often used for playing around with different tonearm / cartridge combinations.
DeleteThe old studio, broadcast and cinema sound equipment were built to standards that are just not financially viable in domestic equipment and it can hold it's own against and often shame some very high end kit. There is also the fun in finding and restoring, similar to hunting down old vinyl
ReplyDeleteYes that is mine Meles, a bit more on my BTH speakers here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/242900-bth-k10a-large-dual-concentric-project.html
A 45 amp has always appealed to me and I found a pair of Boxed NOS 45 triodes alone with a presto pp 45 cutting amp in an antique shop near me. I think they only cost about £10
Well I'll let you know on impressions of the 45 down the road. Free tubes are a good starting point, but the kiler is always the output tranformer with SETs.
DeleteInteresting and overwhelming. Quite a crew around here who dabble in the vintage, so I'll have to bring up your system with them. Ohio is a big military electronics area and is good for parts, etc, but I doubt equipment so much. I am glad that SETs, etc. are on your radar as they are a natural with high sensitivity speakers.
A Schubert 9 I want to give a try is WRC ST 627 with Szell conducting the Cleveland SO. I understand this was his last recording and was issued on the US Angel label. The WRC looks to be a contemporary rather than a reissue that EMI chose not to issue on ASD
ReplyDeleteI'm sure the WRC issue would be a better pressing than the Angel if my experience of other Angels is anything to go by.
Wait a second ... isn't that just the reissue of SAX 2517 or is it a later recording? I didn't know that Szell recorded the Schubert 9th in stereo more than once with the CO?
DeleteI'm not sure. It's the same recording that was issued on Angel S-36044. I have little information on Angels so I don't know if that was a reissue of SAX 2517
DeleteI don't think SAX 2517 was released on Angel given that Epic/Columbia had already released it. Tin Ear seems to think this is an entirely different recording.
DeleteSo if it is the later recording (I was told it was the last recording Szell made before he died) then it is the original 1st UK EMI pressing.
DeleteDoes anyone know if the performance is good or not?
I certainly haven't, but perhaps some of our other readers can comment?
DeleteCan only be the Epic/Columbia.
ReplyDelete1967 issue - thus precedes the ASD.
http://fischer.hosting.paran.com/music/Szell/discography-szell-2.htm
ReplyDeleteFascinating how ST627, issued Autumn 1967, can be the same as the April 1970 recorded ASD2760....
Bizarre. That can't be the case. I just googled the album and found a site linking ST627 to the reissue of SAX 2517. That probably makes more sense.
ReplyDeleteYes, it does, so it seems that it is a reissue of the earlier recording.
DeleteThe only fly in the ointment is that the stamper numbers on ST627 are BC 1009A-3G R 2 & BC 1009B-3G G 1 which are certainly not SAX or the numbering system WRC used on it's remastered issues.
Those are Epic numbers. All the Epic stereo releases had the BC prefix followed by a four digit number starting with 1001. This is something I have never quite understood, but some of the Columbia SAX Szell releases had BC matrix numbers while others had YAX. My guess, and I think Tin Ear had alluded to this before, is that if EMI/Columbia had to remaster the recording to change the album program (add an overture, combine different symphonies on one LP, etc), they gave the LP a YAX matrix number. It could be that if there was no remastering, they went with BC xxxx. The US Epic pressings, interestingly, do not use BC matrix numbers.
DeleteThank you, all is clear now.
DeleteSo, it seems very likely EMI did remaster these and just used the epic codes in the dead wax. Does anyone have an understanding of the emi deadwax stuff in the same detail as the Deccas. Aqlam's SAX 2517 review has:
DeleteStampers:
BC 1009-A2
BC 1009-B2
Looking at Discogs this is very bizarre. It shows a 1975 angel with STC627 and that must be wrong. Epic numbers mean the WRC is the 1957 recording. The 75 angel would go with the ASD.