RCA Living Stereo LSC-2183: The Reiner Sound ... one of my all-time favorite shaded dogs
The Reiner Sound
Chicago Symphony Orchestra
Fritz Reiner, conductor
Pressing: US, Indianapolis, shaded dog
Date first published: 1958
Matrix numbers: 19S/20S
Performance: 10/10
Sound: 9/10
Price range: $21-219 (mean $60) on popsike.com
Comments: This is hands down one of my favorite shaded dogs for a number of reasons. First, the choice of repertoire is a great test of both orchestral power and sensitivity. Secondly, the performances are outstanding. I have heard a lot of different recordings of the Rapsodie Espagnole, but this one has got to be one of the best (alongside Paray's legendary Mercury recording). Valin comments below that Reiner was not typically praised for his interpretations of French works, and while that may be true, he nevertheless produced two exemplary recordings of French music -- this one, and LSC-2222 (Iberia). The Isle of the Dead is also top drawer and a real musical journey from start to finish. Thirdly, the sound is quite superb. Even on my 19S/20S copy, the dynamics can reach explosive levels in the Rapsodie and Isle of the Dead. The soundstage is quite expansive and deep, and with a more laid-back presentation, you feel like you are sitting in a center seat, middle row of Orchestra Hall in Chicago. Hall acoustics are also very well reproduced (I love hearing the decay after one of the orchestral climaxes in Rapsodie ... if you've heard this recording, I think you know which part I mean). Both treble and bass are well-extended (thank goodness for some bass on this RCA). Some very slight loss of clarity in some of the louder passages of Isle of the Dead on my copy bring my sonic grade to a 9. And last but not least, what can beat that cover of a crotchety Reiner sitting out in a field with a music stand?
For whatever reason, the auction value of this album has decreased in recent years. It used to be that this was unattainable for under $100, but at some point in the last 10 years, prices dropped (much to our benefit), and clean copies can now be had on the auction market for somewhere between $25-70. I bought this copy a year ago for $28.
Valin had a 1s/1s pressing for his review in the RCA Bible:
"A superb recording, especially the Rachmaninoff Isle of the Dead (although the Ravel Rapsodie is top-notch, too, and played with extraordinary sensitivity and elan by a conductor who was not famous for his light French touch). Excellent transparency, fidelity, dynamics, and texture. One of my favorites and indisputably one of the great RCA's." Grading: 10++/NR/Excellent.
I couldn't agree more.
This past winter I also purchased the new Analogue Productions 200g reissue of this album. On first glance, very high production quality with a thick laminated cardboard cover and pristine looking vinyl (although side 2 of my copy started off with a series of 4-5 very soft tics ... oh well). Sound floor is improved with very quiet surfaces (though they're brand new and should be), yielding better clarity and a little more detail than on the original. The atmospheric detail is also very well produced on this reissue. For $30, this one seems like a very suitable alternative.
On the topic of this AP reissue, Valin writes in The Absolute Sound:
"Grade: A+. As good as this record has ever sounded. Liquidly beautiful string and wind tone, very deep and powerful bass (although the orchestra occasionally overloads the mics or mic preamps, as it does on the original RCA pressings), sensational dynamics on both the Ravel Rapsodie and the Rachmaninoff Isle of the Dead (with some of the lifelike ease you usually only hear on reel-to-reel tape), and astonishing preservation of inner detail (some of which I havnen't heard before this clearly on vinyl or digital)."
There are also the Classic Records and Chesky reissues, which I've not heard (Meles - you have this ... any comments?). So, you have your options!
Hey-Ho...I've a previously unplayed (USAF lot) Indi 17S/20S (A2/A2) and couldn't agree less!!
ReplyDeleteThe Rachmaninov has blatantly compressed climaxes (in '71 had a UK/RCA Victrola - with dodgy edits).
A Telefunken mastered mid/late 1970's German VICS1205 is clearly superior.
There seems a general 'nasal coloration' surounding the sound in these recordings.
I'd also put a word in for the Munch/BSO Rapsodie which received a remarkably good RCA/UK transfer on Camden Classics, in the mid '70's (one side used)!
Ha! Well, the beauty of this forum is that we can agree to disagree. I'm sorry that your listening experience wasn't as positive as mine. The Munch/BSO Rapsodie is on the docket for review. I also listened to that today, and while the sound is also impressive, the Rapsodie didn't have quiet the same impact on me as the Reiner.
DeletePerhaps the edginess I heard in the musical climaxes of the Rachmaninoff was analogous to your statement about "blatantly compressed climaxes"?
DeleteNope - not any 'edginess' - just plain heavily flattened climaxes (gruesomely so!).
DeleteThe 'listening experience' was the same as a teenager (ADC 10E/II PU)...so, with 3 transfers heard, over 30 years, this is obviously how the tapes are..
Can't wait to read how good the Guilini/Tchaik 2 is; bought as the 1981 SXLP........
I'll be sure to post my impressions as soon as I get a chance!
DeleteTin,
DeleteMunch BSO Rapsodie on Camden UK? Are you referring to LSC-1984? That is an interesting and under rated record (pressing dependent I think and I've got a little pile of them).
I have the early Classic Records reissue of this, the one without the shaded dog. I picked this up along with four other Classic reissues some 17 years ago and whilst I've not compared it to an original pressing the narrative above certainly applies.
ReplyDeleteThis question goes out to AndyW and Tin Ear (and any other collectors in the UK): what are your thoughts on the UK issues of RCA Living Stereo releases? It seems that they were remastered by Decca engineers, which makes me wonder if they sound different, possibly better, than the US pressings. Some of them sell for a lot of money, even more than the US counterparts, so I wonder if it's all due to rarity or if there is a sonic justification for this discrepancy. Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
DeleteThere's a Story that Decca used Westrex (as per RCA/USA) cutters for these; rather doubt that.
DeleteThe Reiner Brahms 3 is terrible - the Rossini Ov not as good as the later Victrola - years since I played most (have many) but the Rubinstein Paganini Rhapsody sounded 'special'...would need to sample them all again...some original matrices turn up on 'Plum' Victrola (Brahms PC2/ Gilels).
Thanks for the input, Tin Ear. I'd be inclined to try some of these out if it was clear that they were a sonic improvement from the US shaded dogs. Sounds like it is a mixed bag. You can't trust any of the sellers/dealers who keep quoting "Audiophile sound!" ... because I've heard those famous last words before. If you have any recommendations of worthy RCA SB titles, I'd be grateful. I may consider doing an A/B comparison to try establish a conclusion about the UK vs US pressings.
DeleteI'd need to hear the US pressing to make a meaningful comparison. Don't now if those cutters deficiences were restricted to the EHF...but a Belafonte @ Carnegie (18/18/8/10S - v.early '60s) sounds splendid - with lovely vinyl.
DeletePersonally, I'd save my $$$'s - and investigate later 'non-tube' audiophile material instead of seeking 'nirvana' from the same old performances..
To save time, here's the lot (couple of vocals) - obviously you wouldn't be interested in everything - and doubtless you've an SB Listing. Only a small # of these US items had previously 'gone east'.
DeleteSB 2001/2006/2007/2023/2032/2052/2066/2075/2085/2096-7/2101/2103/2106/2113/2119/2122/2133/2144/2149/2151/6505/6512/6528.
Think there's a typo for 2112..
DeleteSound advice. Yes ... how did Einstein define insanity again? Doing the same thing over and over again, hoping for a different outcome? It's probably also a component of audio nervosa and seeking the best pressing of a well-loved album. That Belafonte is a well known audiophile classic!
DeleteYou're also right in that we have mostly focused on tube recordings. Meles probably has more non-tube audiophile recordings than I do (and I'd goad him on to post more on these). We'll see what we can do moving forward. A number of the "10/10" recommendations from yesterday's post were post-tube recordings, which is great.
Thanks for the listing -- is that your personal recommendation list?
DeleteFor kicks, I found a relatively inexpensive copy of SB 6540 -- actually released on RCA as "dynagroove", which I avoid like the plague, but not as dynagroove in the UK. I'd like to see if Decca made the better pressing here, since it has the same grooved red/silver label as the other ED1 UK RCA SB releases. Have you heard this Munch?
That's the list of USmateal - not the recommendation!
DeleteWhat's 6540??
Munch conducting Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun and Nocturnes.
DeleteSB: Nope...only as reissue..
DeleteLike Decca's there are different labels / pressings. The earliest are the red label with the silver writing. These are analogous to ED1 Decca's. The next are an orange red colour with black writing. These are analogous to ED2 Decca's. Both have the deep groove of the early Decca's.
DeleteSo Tin Ear's list is US matrices. Wow! (Talk about throwing gasonline on the AQL fire) It would be foolish to get those unless at a nice dicsount. Traveling through ebay...
DeleteI see SB2066 Mendelsohn/Heifetz is 1M/1M that is Decca. US version is decent, but I'd like to hear the UK.
SB2103 Pines of Rome would be nice if it was the 1S which is big money stateside
(FTC-2111 Reel Tape Heifetz Bruch Vieuxtemps Sargent Scottish at $51, just ran into that)
SB2113 Cliburn Prok3/MacDowell2 is a favorite and not reissued folks
SB-2144 RUBINSTEIN/RACHMANINOV/FALLA in a 1S would kick but, another favorite (Classic Avail)
I expect the SB6500 is a little later. I'd be fearful of the UK version if it came out a lot later because of pressing inferioriy.
This is a great list Tin Ear! A US collector who is impulsive and petulent (???) might have bought those and been a bit dissappointed generally. The ones I did not mention are generally not that exciting.
To my mind the hope for SB is to find Decca pressings of US recorded material that might have a little more oomph. RCA was known to back off on the bass in their cuts because of US changers jumping out of the groove.
For the AQL types (the wheeler dealer who will sell), the SB Decca pressings of Decca recorded material would be very, very interesting. The most expensive RCAs are expensive due to rarity too, and Euro orchestras did not sell well in the USA, so the LSC's of those that Decca recorded for RCA are rare and generally good pressings. I doubt these are worth the big money and in fact the Classic Records reissues are now selling pretty high on some of these titles and they are not as rare. An original Decca pressing of these would be very, very interesting, but ultimately you have to ask are these any better than the Decca releases (way overpriced) and their London counterparts (way underpriced). Not to put out the AQL flames, but given the prices of London bluebacks why pay big money for an SB Decca unless the performance/sound combination is unbeatable.
My other concern with SB RCA (Decca) is did Decca use the same quality of tape to master as with their own releases or did RCA give them something lesser to work with. I don't think I've heard much on that subject and the US centric RCA Bible is not holy in this area.
We have a list of Decca recorded RCA's at the end of our guide:
Deletehttp://milestomozart.blogspot.com/2014/10/living-decca-sxl-blueback-guide.html
Resources link above right currently on this page.
I've heard Tin Ear's thoughts on this ... sounds like the SB's are not worth my money or consideration at this point. Would you agree or is your experience with these UK pressed RCA's any different? I would not think about the UK RCA's with US matrices, but as Meles was alluding to, trying out the Decca pressings of Decca-recorded material would be an interesting comparison. I've recently landed copies of some of the US shaded dog versions -- Witches' Brew, Martinon's Dvorak Slavonic Dances, Martinon's Shostakovich Age of Gold, Martinon's Prokofiev symphonies, etc. Not sure my wallet can take a second beating with the UK ones, which I am sure do not sell for less than these on Ebay.
DeleteIf I was to choose just one (without listening to those unplayed), I guess it would be the Sibelius VC/Heifetz - but if the RCA is OK - then why bother?
DeleteFor some reason, the Reiner/Respighi carries 1S/1S matrices (1-C) but Decca re-cut for the 1970 Victrola.
These 'comments' are anyway becoming unwieldy, in terms of added 'info'. It would make more sense to create a UK RCA list and refer to reissues - especially when they are the same matrices/early recuts..many 1960's Victrola's come into that category...but I never seem able to convince myself that these things are worth more than a pound, or two...some 10x Dealers buying price!
Orientals generally don't want these UK RCA's (unless violin'n'cello) - but one kindly helped himself to a NOS SB Witches Brew (+others) as 'freebies'...and some, like Sibelius 5 would sell (the VICS has the same 1D matrices).
The US Sibelius is a fine record. See my reply to AndyW below on Resphigi matrices. With the UK material everyone (Dealer driven) loves to just look at the labels and I've become guilty of this, but I am starting to see the light (especially with EMI material).
DeleteI've got all the Decca RCA SB material in the SXL guide (Resources). US Victrola is markedly inferior to the LSC material, so for US collectors British Victorla carries a stigma from this. (Early US Victrola is inferior, later may be about as good as later LSC). Matrix information is very unweildy. I get the feeling that both you and Andy have this informatin recorded in spreadsheets/database. We don't have room given the limitations in width in our blog layout to show this, but I am very open to suggestions. My problem is lack of data or getting all that data into a spreadsheet. That is daunting, but I am willing to maintain and put up data (and I well understand not wanting to broadcast this data as a collector.) These are precious morsels. I want a 1D VICS Sibelius 5 though I have the Classic Records issue (and I think a US Victrola).
I am fascinated by the Asian collectors given the undeniable impact on EMI and Decca used prices. I know a Chinese audiophiile who travels frequently to Asia and elsewhere. He had a Hong Kong audiophile magazine that was more like a book with lots of discussion of older classical records (something woefully absent in US magazines for some time.) You may be right on string instrument soloist collecting and that gives some insight on a lot of these titles accross these labels. When they are rare and good, collectors are willing to pay big money for originals even if reissues exist. Chamber musics (even in mono) are generally rare and go for big money. I understand pricing on these for the performance, but when a decent reissue or CD exists then we go into the performance audiophile collector. I guess some are willing to pay for the prestige of the best possible sounding copy of some performances. (The Electric Recording Company catalog seems to cater somewhat to these collectors.) Your violin/cello comment above is interesting as it helps clarify what drives these collectors. This is very important for collectors with other motivations. I think most of us would be very disappointed with the Kogan SAX Beethoven VC which sells surprisingly frequently for close to $10,000. It is not $10,000 good, but for true connosieurs of the violin and cello it may be very special to have such a record. As a collector you need to know when a title is worth going for and when not too (quite a few of Maestro Salvatore's Reccs are north of $200).
On UK RCA, popsike shows some of the biggest sales happening in the last few months with Venice being the tops (one I actually have! plus the Classic), Iberia, L`ARLESIENNE, Witches Brew, then Ballet Music from Opera. LDS Royal Ballet is tops in shaded dogs. Surprisingly LSC 2421 SD HENRYK SZERYNG RECITAL 2S/1S went for over $1000 recently and the SB for around $700 just recently (missed that and it would be #2). Carmen is 3rd (I got that plus several Classics!). Ballet/Opera is 4. ReinerAlsoSprach is 5 (I got that plus several Classics! maybe I should stop whining about not having good original LSCs.) Witches Brew is 6. It is interesting that the SB gets more money in the Albeniz Iberia and a lot more for the Bizet L`ARLESIENNE. Perhaps the British SB market has not gone haywire like the EMI and Decca stuff, but its close and I don't think collectors are playing a premium for the SB L`ARLESIENNE or Albeniz Iberia because its British. I must say those UK Camden Victorola are interesting.
Where are the Witches Brew freebies?
Presumably in a South Korean Bank Vault -nuclear bomb proof?
DeleteYou do realise the Morel/ROHO is on VICS1058 ?
http://themusicparlour.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/jean-morel-roho-covent-garden-l-espana.html
The verdict is in ... I got this UK RCA SB 6540 of Munch conducting Debussy today. It will leave my collection as quickly as it came in. Horrible. Distortion all over the recording. Totally veiled. Dynamically compressed. I bet the performance is very good but I can't tell. This is a 1G/1G pressing.
DeleteI will say that the number of London's I have of Decca recorded for RCA material (license reverted to London) have not been awe inspiring. Respectable to be sure and I've not had some of the big heavy hitters, like Witch's Brew. For SB I'd like to hear early stuff. Pretty sure I have Alpine symphony Decca, but that latter and very interesting (dynagroove, but not!). I've got an order going on with UK dealer and I may have to peruse the SB to see if I can find a good experiment that won't puncture my wallet too badly.
DeleteI think your sound review is spot on despite the Tin Ear set. Original RCA Shaded Dog sound is an area of great consternation. On one side you have Tom Port of Better Records who swears by the originals and hates all these new pressings and then on the other you have those who prefer many of the newer pressings. I suspect the difference is in their systems and not so much their ears. A truly accurate system is probably going to do very well with the reissues, but might take away some of the bloom of the original. Such a system will probably have a lot of dynamic clout, etc. A system tuned and tweaked exclusively for vintage vinyl is going to have just the right amount of bloom to lock in in a wonderful way with the original Shaded Dog. This same system will not perform relatively as well with newer recordings and these reissues. A great system (like AQL's) plays both well, but even with tube systems their are huge differences in sound.
ReplyDeletePart of the fun of my current system which is a very solid state sounding tube setup is I can steer for both of these sounds. I keep going for accuracy, but sometimes when I go back to old favorties (like my RCA Opera box review) something is missing slightly. They are better overall, but a bit more clinical. I am not going back to my older sound, but I can see easily in mircrocosm how this disagreement has arisen.
I've not listened to either my Chesky or early Classic for a long time (in Europe some of the Classic had teh living stereo covered up by the distributor Alto Fidelity). The early Classic is a solid state Grundmann cut. I did not fall in love with either. Run for the Analog Production reissue. It has consistent quality. If you really want to sniff the corks then buy some other shaded dogs and if you find you love that sound, then snag an original Reiner Sound. The new pressings are going to be much more consistent.
Some people have a disease and must hear the most expensive pressing always (AQL). Their only hope is a willingness to turn around and sell so the next masterpiece may enter the collection.
I am getting excited about Analog Productions. Very much enjoyed the Heifetz Scottish Fantasy reissue last night at the Quadophile's, but I've not shot it out with some of my original pressings because the Quadophile owns the AP.
I have the UK Decca pressed Reiner Respighi Pines and Fountains of Rome SB-2013.
ReplyDeleteThe Matrix numbers are K2RY-4735-1S 1 B & K2RY-4733-1S 1 B.
The legendary 1S/1S stampers?...... I'd be surprised if there were
Being very lazy (and not having a great original copy), K2 RY4735-3S H and K2 RY4736-3S H from Discogs.
ReplyDeleteHere, the H is for Hollywood, alternatively we have R for the Rockaway plant, and I for Indianapolis. I is considered best. These codes are usually at 180 degrees from the matrices code. You always see a metal mother code 90 degrees left, something like A1 or B1. The A or B is the mother code and the 1 is the stamper. Stamper numbrs do not go as high as Decca or even close. Based on RCA Bible discussion, i expect that the stamper number is not as telling for RCA as they made more LPs from a given stamper. If you've got perfect stamper numbers you may not have the best pressing if your LP was one of the later ones off the stamper. I suspect this is more apparent with RCA then with Decca, but this is a guess.
So a 1S SB ought to be pretty good. I assume your 1 and B are the Decca style mother code and stamper code. B would be quite a stamper. We seem to be assuming that the 1S means that the record is a us metal matrix. Perhaps this is not the case. If it is a US metal mother, then is it the first mother or a used mother, etc.? Decca lettering for matrix codes looks slightly different. I think the most obvious difference is the spacing between letters where the RCA matrix codes have letters more widely spaced, so how is your spacing? Decca letters or something different?
I'm surprised the "Pavan for a Dead Princess," isn't mentioned?? I heard it first on a RCA Audiophile sampler CD. Totally amazing. Ethereal...
ReplyDeleteYes, you're right! It's a lovely performance of the Pavane. I played my shaded dog copy of this recording just a few days ago and was reminded of its magic.
DeleteI suspect RCA upgraded this particular sampler to SCAD standards. There appears to be quite a gold tinge to it?? I could be wrong...
ReplyDeleteI hope you'll forgive me for mentioning those dreaded "silver discs," but they're just part of the story. One Saturday afternoon I stumbled upon a vinyl copy of "The Reiner Sound," just sitting all by its lonesome on a shelf at one of the local GWs.
ReplyDeleteThe cover was a little split along the edges, but the vinyl was immaculate! A beautiful S/D.
Don'tcha just love when that happens...??
No need to apologize. I listen to CDs and SACDs a lot - there's no shame in that. I'm glad to hear about your discovery!
DeleteI happen to have the German Teldec Tin Ear mentions, as well as the Chesky. For my ears the Chesky is better, has a warmer, tubier sound and a nice instrument separation. I heard some hints of distortion on climaxes, but nothing too off-putting. Dynamics are better than the Teldec. I still miss some space definition in this record. I wonder if I will find it in the original Shaded Dog.
ReplyDeleteI have listened to the shaded dog over the last several years and have to say that as much as I like this record, I can recognize some of the issues that Tin Ear brought up many years ago. This became more apparent to me when I purchased the Analogue Productions 180 g vinyl reissue, which to me sounded superior to the shaded dog - certainly much quieter and more dynamic without the compression noticeable in the climactic sections.
DeleteSorry, I meant the 200g vinyl reissue (as mentioned above)!
Delete